North Carolina Wrestling Forum
ANY ISSUES - admin@ncwrestlingscoutreport.com => High School Wrestling => Topic started by: Coach Carey on February 25, 2019, 09:07:34 AM
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I am sitting in a meeting, and can't help to think about a rule or two I would like to change in High School Wrestling.
If I could make 2 rule changes right now in high school wrestling, it would be:
1, use the college out of bounds rule, especially in the Neutral position. This would help our officials immensely. This would make things so much easier to call, no more grey area. Too many takedowns are not being given because the whistle is being called too soon, so there is no incentive to work on your feet when so many takedowns are not counted.
2, Stalling. I don't like stalling, but I also don’t like referees handing out points when it's a grey area. I want the kids to earn points and win the matches. Here would be my fix.
When on top and bottom, if the bottom wrestler has his head on the mat or his arms tucked in for 2 seconds, then it’s a stall call. Otherwise, the bottom wrestler is not stalling.
On top, if the top wrestler is directly parallel, then the ref gives a verbal 5 count, and if you are still there, then you are hit for stalling, otherwise, it’s the bottom wrestlers job to get off the bottom.
If we are top and bottom and the bottom wrestler gets to his feet, then he has 5 seconds to return him (verbal count) or he is hit for stalling. No more intent to return, but he has to return or cut him loose. I believe it sometimes takes work for the top wrestler to “break” the bottom wrestler to turn him, so I don’t mind tough top wrestling. I believe it’s the bottom wrestlers responsibility to get off the bottom. Right now, I see top wrestlers who are out to the side and working, that are being hit for stalling. I have had my bottom wrestler be booted up with his knees off the mat, and hit for stalling. I am at the point to where I don't know what to tell my wrestlers. This would make it more clear for the wrestler and official. This isn't to bash officials. I just want to take the subjectivity out of the match. Check the boxes before handing out points. I was sitting with officials at the state tournament and half were saying this kid was stalling and the other half were saying he wasn't. If we had a black and white system of stalling, it would be easier to call for the official and easier for the wrestler and coach to accept.
Neutral stalling would still be a little subjective and harder to call. However, when wrestlers are on their feet, if you take 2 steps directly backwards out of the center circle, then you are stalling. I am not talking about being overpowered and pushed out like an O lineman would do while run blocking in football, but you are stalling when backing out of shots.
What say you?
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The NFHS did a good of defining many of the positions, including stalling, this year. If you would read the rule book and case book from the 2018-2019 then many of your questions would be answered.
In most cases both coaches and wrestlers do not understand that all is required by either wrestler is to attempt a move in the neutral, offensive and defensive positions. And both wrestlers have the responsibility to wrestle aggressively in any position.
A great official handled questions by coaches and officials by saying "have you read your rule book?". The same answer still works today.
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Great question Coach Carey to get some traffic on the forum. Here is what I would like to see changed.
1. Push out or step out rule(not sure which one would be better) but one of them would help.
2. Takedowns are woth 3 points
3. Change team scoring for dual meets. Every other sports is simplistic and the casual fan can understand team scoring pretty quickly. Team score should be cumulative. Wrestler A scores 4 points and wrestler B scores 10 points, Team A would have 4 team points and Team B would have 10 team points. No major decisions. Injuries, FF could be worth 14 points. Pins are worth 21 points.
Anyone think tech falls should be 10 point difference rather than current 15?
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Have read the book, just wanting ways to make it clearer because it's not enforced that way, especially, the top and bottom wrestling. Even officials will tell you it's not consistent from official to official, and I think the specific language would make it easier to call.
Coach Smithwick, I have agreed for years about the cumulative scoring! Now that we opened that door for the conversation, I would go 10 point tech (you get 10 team points too), and 12 team points for Pins. I think the biggest gain from cumulative scoring would be if I am up 6 to 1 with 10 seconds left, the losing wrestler has incentive to get up from bottom or score to help close the gap in team score. Right now, the losing wrestler has no extra incentive because he is almost certain to give up 3 team points with a decision. If he doesn't score any more, my team gets 6, and my opponent gets 1. Plus, it makes it so much easier for casual fans to follow which would help grow the sport!
I would make only 4 point Near Fall for 4 seconds at 45 degrees. No more 2 or 3 point Near Fall. 4 points for 4 seconds. That way, you don't get that quick 2 point call that sometimes happens. I am not crazy about 3 point takedowns, but not totally against it neither. I think you should get good in all 3 areas of wrestling, not just on your feet.
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The NFHS did a good of defining many of the positions, including stalling, this year. If you would read the rule book and case book from the 2018-2019 then many of your questions would be answered.
In most cases both coaches and wrestlers do not understand that all is required by either wrestler is to attempt a move in the neutral, offensive and defensive positions. And both wrestlers have the responsibility to wrestle aggressively in any position.
A great official handled questions by coaches and officials by saying "have you read your rule book?". The same answer still works today.
They did go into some detail, you are correct on that. And I believe they are honestly trying to improve. Kudos to them for that. To bad a majority of the calls didn't match the rule book. Your last line is quite condescending in tone and I hope officials don't reply to a serious inquiry with that manner of disrespect. That isn't communicating and is a great example of why the rules are enforced so differently from mat to mat. Anyone who has watched wrestling in this state this year cannot with a straight face believe stalling is called consistently from area to area, from ref to ref, or sometimes from period to period.
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Use the step out rule in the neutral as applied in the international styles.
Increase the penalty for stoppages in near fall for injury time. Can't help bleeding, not sure we should penalize more than we do now. Second stoppage for injury time by the bottom wrestler in near fall position and the match is over.
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With the push out rule, I worry about kids in high school with freshman just being over powered and it turns into a pushing contest/ sumo wrestling instead of taking shots. That said, I would like an incentive to stay in the middle, but I am not sure how I would like it regulated.
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The reasons there is some much inconsistency with officials and their calls are:
1. Officials are only required to make 80% on the national rules exam in order to call post season competition. That test is open book and untimed. Theoretically a group of officials could take the test together and spend almost two weeks taking it. There is no real measure of the official's rules knowledge and there is no evaluation system in place. In other words, many officials don't know the rules.
2. The Regional Supervisory is responsible for the consistency of the calls his officials make. So if you have problems with consistency or rules knowledge you should direct your frustration to the Regional Supervisor and then the Supervisor of Officials. In other words, there is a lack of quality training and accountability.
3. Physical shape. Most calls are missed later in the day, semi-finals or finals.
One thing that can be done at the state individual wrestling tournament is to bring in the officials in early and have a rules and mat clinic for about an hour or so to get every official on the same page. As it is now, very little is done to get every official on the same page. At the state wrestling tournament every official should be evaluated and those officials not up to standards should be sent home. Not every official should be calling semi and final matches.
Nothing changes until concerns are voiced through the proper procedures at the NCHSAA.
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Physical shape. Most calls are missed later in the day, semi-finals or finals.
I love it when an official calls a pin with his foot and doesn't bother to get down on the mat to check shoulders, for whatever reason. Yes I have seen it done!
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I would like to see a rule for the arm chop. When the top wrestler attempts to break don the bottom wrestler by chopping down at the arm/elbow.
I needs to be treated like the cross face. where if you load up or pull you arm back and then swing a cross face it's illegal.
I see too many bottom wrestlers get hurt because the elbow gets hyperextened when struck.
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Use the step out rule in the neutral as applied in the international styles.
100%! Agree with this! I think it promotes action because they know they have to stay in the center.
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I have been dying to have this conversation with other coaches. I agree 100% on the two rule changes, I would love those 2 changes. Now that I am in SC, (just my opinion) They have taken the "emphasis" on stalling to a crazy new level. I have spoken with other NC coaches that say they hated crossing the border this season because of the inconsistent stalling calls. The state championships were this past weekend and I feel like it was a game within a game to see how officials were calling stalling each match. Each match had a new story to tell and stalling was thrown out like candy. I cringed everytime a kid was up a point in a match and was defending beautifully without stalling. I believe SC has gotten it out of control and basically gave officials the green light to insert themselves into a match. Im not bashing refs, I know its a difficult job but the stalling needs to be less subjective and Coach Carey hit on a great idea. Just my opinion and not trying to sound like im bashing refs, I just think there needs to be some clarification.
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I would love to see a step out rule (from Neutral). A step out with Mat Wrestling could get complicated so i'd leave that alone for now. and I would go a nearfall point for every swipe up to 4. I do like the cumulative dual meet scoring as well.
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With the push out rule, I worry about kids in high school with freshman just being over powered and it turns into a pushing contest/ sumo wrestling instead of taking shots. That said, I would like an incentive to stay in the middle, but I am not sure how I would like it regulated.
Pushing someone out is already called as stalling and would be continued to be called that way. Pushing out of bounds is avoiding wrestling and stalling.
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Pushing someone out is already called as stalling and would be continued to be called that way. Pushing out of bounds is avoiding wrestling and stalling.
That is the issue. It isn't called as stalling as it is called out at the beginning of last season consistently. Sometimes it was, especially early in the season. Then for much of the season for most refs it went back to the way it was in many areas of the state. If a wrestler got a little tired the strategy became to push them backwards and get a stalling. No attempt to wrestle. To say its already stalling is missing the point of the discussion entirely.
The point of the post is to allow a method to eliminate some of the subjectivity and interpretation from the stalling rules. It was mentioned because the current rule set is not being enforced consistently among officials, different areas of the state, and sometimes even during the same dual. Part of the issue is that some officials (NOT ALL) are absolutely unwilling to communicate or to operate with an open mind. The I am right and never wrong and if a coach inquires, I will tell him to read his rule book guys are a problem in the sport. That attitude is toxic in any walk of life and will not promote growth or improvement. Some officials have an excellent dialogue, they communicate, they are consistent, and generally love the sport. Anyone can work with that and positive growth will most likely occur. If you get an official who is close minded, unwilling to change, seems to generally not enjoy their job, and just likes being in control you have no chance for improvement. Eliminating some of the subjectivity and allowing for more well defined stalling parameters does address this.
Am I personally for that? I am not sure, but it is at least something I believe should be openly discussed and debated and to keep an open mind about.
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Every idea/suggestion for new rules stated above already exist in the 2018-2019 Rule Book:
1. Rule 5-24 Art 1 - Each wrestler is required to make an honest attempt to stay within the 10 foot circle and wrestle aggressively, regardless of position or the score of the match.
2. Rule 5-24 Art 3 - It is stalling in the neutral position when a wrestler
e. backs off the mat, out of bounds or
f. pushes or pulls their opponent out of bounds
Points of emphasis
Stalling page 59 of the Rule Book.
3. Rule 5-14 Art 1 - Any hold/maneuver used in such a way as to endanger life and limb is illegal. Holds/maneuvers are illegal when a body part is forced beyond the limit of normal range of movement or when unnecessary force is applied to an opponent.
More points for scoring action isn't the answer when there is little to no action on the mat. If you would review video for most of the matches in NC for wrestlers (as a whole) and put a stop watch on the non scoring action and the fake attempts, you would would find in most cases scoring action as a whole would be about a minute or so. New rules will not fix that.
Discussions with Officials regarding rules should be before the match and not part of the coach's conference during the match. The purpose for the coach's conference is to discuss a misapplication of the rule. Which means, the coach has the responsibility to demonstrate a misapplication has occurred, usually by quoting the rule book. Falling a misapplication of the rule, coach misconduct shall be called. Rule 5-5 Art 3. A clarification of time, score and/or choice etc. is not a coach's conference.
Again, most answers to questions can be answered by "have you read your rule book"? When the coach states "yes", the next question is "what does it say"?
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Not true. a Step out rule from Neutral for a point and back points (1 point for each swipe up to 4 Points) are not in the current rule book. The stalling suggestions yes they are in the rule book (the actual application of them i think is more of the question/suggestion than the rules themselves). These two suggestions would have to be NFHS Rule changes however and not in the power of the NCHSAA to change as far as I know.
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If you get an experienced mat official calling by the current rules and interpretations you will get that "step out call", only preceded by a warning. The wording of the stalling rules and current interpretations are there to make that call.
More points for near falls in high school for less control. isn't going to get you all that much more action if any. If you kids can't break their opponent down and work a pinning combination within 10 to 12 seconds, more point potential isn't the answer.
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If you get an experienced mat official calling by the current rules and interpretations you will get that "step out call", only preceded by a warning. The wording of the stalling rules and current interpretations are there to make that call.
More points for near falls in high school for less control. isn't going to get you all that much more action if any. If you kids can't break their opponent down and work a pinning combination within 10 to 12 seconds, more point potential isn't the answer.
Not quite, today you can step off the mat without a stall call. With the step out rule there is a point awarded regardless of whether stalling would have been called in that situation or not.
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oh i get it. i'm referring to the freestyle step out = 1 point. and the nearfall points I just think would be more fun and add a little extra strategy.
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I would like to see a point awarded for each out of bounds from standing position. If a wrester stepped out to avoid wrestling the offensive guy gets a point. If the offensive wrestler intentionally pushes the defensive guy out of bounds its a defensive point. But every out of bounds on the feet should be a point for one of the wrestlers. This would keep the action going on the mat without turning it into Sumo wrestling.