North Carolina Wrestling Forum
ANY ISSUES - admin@ncwrestlingscoutreport.com => High School Wrestling => Topic started by: Longdayrunner on April 04, 2019, 09:06:22 AM
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The two issues concerning the 20/30/30/20 realignment are playing out in the media:
New issue of fair play, equity comes to light with NCHSAA
http://www.carolinacoastonline.com/news_times/sports/article_819f5ecc-5627-11e9-bef9-df77e556d619.html
Haywood County Board of Education requests investigation of NCHSAA
https://www.themountaineer.com/sports/haywood-county-board-of-education-requests-investigation-of-nchsaa/article_7bb2697c-5254-11e9-9da1-d7af45a3ed08.html
As far the sport of wrestling is concerned, could the 20/30/30/20 issue be corrected by:
1. Adding a sectional tournament to get the best overall seeding for the regional tournament.
2. Separating the Charter Schools into a second division for all post season competition.
What do you think?
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Personally, I would be in favor of separating the Charter Schools into their own division.
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I could see a 2 year realignment instead of 4 helping some with school enrollments changing rapidly.
I also heard a rumor that all sports were going to the spilt by ADM like they do in football for state championships.
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Realignment every two years would be too much work. The process takes two years to complete by itself. The easiest solution is for the NCHSAA to be more receptive to allowing teams to change classification. It's a simple fix really, but their refusal to accommodate these schools is now going to court. This has been a long time coming and could seriously change things up in the future. I'm particularly interested in the private entity aspect of the lawsuit.
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NC should go to a 3 class system anyway. There is not enough total enrollment for 4 classes.
Virginia has killed their athletics programs with their current system. An almost everyone gets a trophy mentality.
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Tompt, the classification system isn't about competition at all. It's all about making more money. I bet this point will be expounded and exploited beyond measure in the lawsuit unless an agreement or settlement takes place prior.
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Haywood Board of Education sends follow-up letter to NCHSAA
By Mike Schoeffel mschoeffel@themountaineer.com Apr 27, 2019
Patrick Smathers, attorney for the Haywood County Board of Education, sent a follow-up letter to NCHSAA Commissioner Que Tucker in mid-April requesting documents proving the NCHSAA’s legitimacy as the governing body of North Carolina high school athletics.
The letter, which is addressed directly to Tucker, asks for four types of documentation in particular: an application by the NCHSAA to enforce the state board’s rules governing high school athletics, an acceptance of said application, any “guidance, rules, regulations, directives and evaluations” involving the NCHSAA’s governing activities and, lastly, any reports compiled by the NCHSAA within the past five years in regards to its enforcement of the state board’s rules.
The letter was a sequel to one that was sent to Eric Davis, chairman of the North Carolina Board of Education, and Mark Johnson, the superintendent of the North Carolina Department of Public Instruction, last month. Commissioner Tucker was copied in that letter — as were state politicians, various media outlets and others — which called for “an investigation and examination of the procedures and policies of the NCHSAA.”
The main thrust of the first letter was that the NCHSAA has cultivated an unfair playing field for numerous schools across the state, including Tuscola, which is currently competing in the Class 3A WMAC, despite having enrollment numbers much smaller than other schools in the conference. The largest institution in the WMAC is T.C. Roberson, with 1,644 students. Tuscola, meanwhile, currently has 974, according to the initial letter.
The original letter declared numerous NCHSAA policies unjust, including two in particular which have disadvantaged Tuscola: the implementation of a rule that requires a school’s enrollment to drop at least 10 percent to be considered as criteria for reclassification, and the newly-implemented 20-30-30-20 classification standard that, in some instances, has pitted schools with vastly different enrollment sizes against one another.
Tuscola had been fighting within the confines of the NCHSAA bylaws to be reclassified with schools similar in size through appeal processes: the first came when the 2017-21 classifications were announced in 2016, the second at last November’s winter board meeting. Both requests were denied, as were requests for a grievance hearing and a face-to-face meeting with Tucker, according to the first letter.
The Mountaineer reached out to Commissioner Tucker via email about whether or not the NCHSAA would provide the requested documentation.
“It is inappropriate for us to comment at this time,” she responded.
Commissioner Tucker, however, did issue an official statement after the first letter was sent, citing regulations adopted in 1952 by the State Board of Education that recognize “the NCHSAA as one of the governing bodies to oversee this endeavor [governing interscholastic athletics in public schools].”
The NCHSAA was founded in 1913 by University of North Carolina professor Dr. Louis Round Wilson. The association was affiliated with UNC until 2010, when it became an independent, non-profit corporation.
The original letter maintained that the NCHSAA should be held to the same standards as other state entities — despite the fact that it’s technically a private entity — and that it should “not permit decisions to be made in an arbitrary and capricious manner without due process.”
The NCHSAA didn’t necessarily agree.
“It is disappointing when a...member school does not understand the history of the Association and its close working relationship with the State Board of Education,” Tucker said in her response.
Chairman Davis said via email that the matter of a potential investigation has been referred to North Carolina Board of Education’s counsel, Eric Snider. The Mountaineer has reached out to Snider, and if a response is given, and a follow-up article is warranted, one will be published.
For a deeper dive into the history of the saga between the NCHSAA and Tuscola, check out the following articles on The Mountaineer’s website: “Little Fish in a Big Pond” and “Haywood County Board of Education requests investigation of NCHSAA.”
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This is going to get ugly I am afraid...
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Being in a big school we're never going to drop into a smaller classification unless a new school opens up. Could someone explain in brief terms that I don't have to spend 20 minutes reading why this is a big enough issue that it needs to go to court? You had schools like west lincoln who are small schools crushing 4A schools this season. St Stephens a 3A school, beating tons of 4a teams, Rosewood a 1A school beats 4A teams. I could be missing the entire point of this but i'm just looking for more clarity on why it needs to be a legal issue? Hell in football theres already like 8 state championships.
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Tuscola to appeal to full NCHSAA membership on Thursday, seeks to drop to 2A
By Nick Stevens, HighSchoolOT.com managing editor & Kyle Morton, HighSchoolOT.com producer
CHAPEL HILL, N.C. — It was announced on Wednesday at the N.C High School Athletic Association's board of directors meeting that Tuscola High School would be appealing to the NCHSAA's membership regarding a recent decision regarding reclassification.
The board originally denied the school's request to re-classify from the 3A level to the 2A level, and a subsequent appeal of that decision was unsuccessful.
The denial was met with a response from Haywood County Schools claiming that Tuscola did not receive fair due process in its appeal of the NCHSAA's original decision.
A letter sent to members of the state government by the legal counsel of Haywood County Schools outlined concerns with the NCHSAA's policies and procedures.
Tuscola originally requested to be re-classified as a 2A school after experiencing a decrease in student population.
Pisgah High School, the other NCHSAA member school in Haywood County and a 2A school, has an average daily membership of 990 according to the letter, a larger number than that of Tuscola's 974.
The NCHSAA responded to the letter with a statement that addressed the concerns that Haywood County Schools expressed regarding the lack of what it viewed as a fair appeals process.
"By the Articles and Bylaws, appeal opportunities ultimately rest with the NCHSAA Board of Directors, a body selected and approved by the membership of the NCHSAA, who represent the interests of all member schools from all eight regions, all four classifications, and wide-ranging roles in education-based athletics," said NCHSAA commissioner Que Tucker.
For Tuscola's bid to overturn the board's decision to succeed, two-thirds of present membership will need to vote in favor of its request.
HighSchoolOT.com will have full coverage throughout the day from the board of directors meeting as well as from Thursday's annual meeting, including live streaming video of the entire event.
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In historic vote, membership denies Tuscola's request to drop to 2A classification
https://www.highschoolot.com/in-historic-vote-membership-denies-tuscola-s-request-to-drop-to-2a-classification/18361133/
By Nick Stevens, HighSchoolOT.com managing editor
CHAPEL HILL, N.C. — Tuscola High School will not be permitted to drop from the 3A classification to the 2A classification after a historic vote at the N.C. High School Athletic Association Annual Meeting at the Dean E. Smith Center in Chapel Hill on Thursday morning.
For the first time in the history of the NCHSAA, member schools voted on whether or not to overturn a ruling by the board of directors. The earlier ruling by the board denied Tuscola's request to drop from the 3A classification to the 2A classification, that ruling was upheld by the NCHSAA membership.
Tuscola will remain a 3A school for the next two years.
A total of 110 ballots were distributed to members attending the meeting on Thursday. A two-thirds vote, or 74 votes, had to support Tuscola's request in order to overturn the board ruling. A total of 44 voted in favor of Tuscola, 65 denied Tuscola's request, and one did not vote.
Tuscola suffered a drop in enrollment of more than 8 percent since the current alignment took effect. Tuscola's average daily membership is now just under 950 students, according to principal Dr. Todd Trantham. More than a dozen 2A schools have larger ADM numbers than Tuscola, which plays in a 3A conference.
“In the last year, the students at Tuscola High School have watched a system that says it values fair competition and equity, but they have watched a set of actions that says something else," Trantham told the membership as he received 10 minutes to speak and state the case of Tuscola. "For many of them it simply seems that equity and fair competition have been forgotten.”
Trantham said a large number of middle class jobs have left western Haywood County, which has resulted in a number of people moving from the area. In fact, Haywood County Schools has closed a feeder school to Tuscola.
“Think about how you might react if the students you care about, work with, and watch grow every day were being placed in this kind of situation," Trantham said. "As educators I think each of us honestly wants to do what’s best for our kids. We owe that to them, we owe it to their families, we owe it to the communities that trust us with their education and their growth. Our hope today is that you will stand with us.”
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Our newspaper posted an article about bringing in a 5A division.... what else has anyone heard about this? How much was it mentioned at the meeting?
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https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/high-school/preps-blog/article229978669.html
The association bylaws, as currently written, require the NCHSAA to operate with four classes. An amendment proposal is expected this fall to add the fifth class. That amendment could be voted on next spring by the NCHSAA member schools. To pass, it would need three-fourths of the schools to vote in favor, slightly more than 300 schools.
If the members vote it through, the NCHSAA board would draft a new realignment that would go into effect for the 2021-22 school year.
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My understanding after talking to some people is a 5th division will be added at the next realignment. It will look like 4A is being subdivided into a 4a and 4AA until the by laws can be voted on and changed. Then it will become 5A
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I heard the same. Subdivide the approx. 80 4A schools and leave the rest the same, with 3A and 2A over 100 schools. It doesn't make much sense to me.
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Heard they haven't decided on actual numbers yet. but I do know they are aiming at reducing the gap between the largest and smallest schools in each division. 4a I believe currently has a massive gap between largest and smallest enrollment numbers in the schools.
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theres 400 some odd schools the NCHSAA has listed on their documents from the last realignment. If you go with an even distribution of those numbers you end up with around 80 schools per classification. 4A currently already has around 80 schools in it while 3a and 2a have over 110. If you move to 5a and its evenly distributed you still have the same 80 schools currently in 4A moving to 5a while the rest get rearranged. Unless 5A is just going to have a small amount of schools in which case it will result in super small regions. Take in account that some of the schools listed don't actually have wrestling and youre ending up with super small regions.
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My AD handed me the 2018/19 ADM numbers and had me organize schools in to a 5 class, even 20-20-20-20-20 % split. In this split the top 20% would start somewhere around High Point Central w/ 1565 students and go up to Myers Park w/ 3513 students.
An even 20% split seems fair, but I guess if you are a Football Coach of a school with about 1500 students and you have to play a school with 3500+ students it may not seem fair. For wrestling (or track or swimming), do we really want a class with about 40 schools, which would be the case if the realignment only split the top 20%?
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I know I will get some flack for this, but I would like to see 1 state champ. If not, at least have a Big School state champ (biggest 50% of schools) and a Small school state champ. Increase the state brackets from 16 to 32, but go that route. I still like having 1a,2a,3a,4a for the duals though.
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No flak but that'll never happen. the number of divisions will only increase. I think the largest division 4aa or 5a whichever you would want to call it would be smaller due to the discrepancy in size of the schools involved. Football will drive wherever that divide happens.
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If they go an even 20% across the board, 4A keeps all the same teams and then adds some. So the gap in the 5A division would be even bigger from the biggest school South meck (2900) to the smallest school which would have around 1500-1600
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What i'm hearing is they won't go 20% across the board. obviously this is a year or so away but thats what i'm hearing
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Yeah, there are already 8 State Champion Football Teams...
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More events = More $$$ for the state and the individual high school programs.
Everybody should get a trophy (I mean participation ribbon).
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I wonder if the NCHSAA would ever consider different classifications for different sports? Football might need six classes, but other sports might be better off with four or even three.
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I like that idea. Go with 6 classes and and then combine classes for other sports as needed. For wrestling we could go with three state champs. 5A/6A, 3A/4A. and 1A/2A.
I don't see that happening though.
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The state consistently putting out the top wrestlers into D1 universities and the states having the most success at the national and world level generally have 2 or 1 state champ. NJ at one point this past season had a huge percentage of the nationally ranked wrestlers. They had around 4 #1 guys. Multiple guys in the the same weight classes ranked the nation. They have 1 state champ. PA has 2, California has 1.
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I heard the same. Subdivide the approx. 80 4A schools and leave the rest the same, with 3A and 2A over 100 schools. It doesn't make much sense to me.
I they're thinking is 4A has such a wide range of attendance size. I know at one time it stretched from 1600ish to 3500 plus putting the smallest 4A less than half the size of the largest 4A.
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Thats exactly what they're thinking with 4A